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BCWF Reg.2 to push for PROPOSED CROSSBOW BAN for the archery season

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Foxton Gundogs

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I just received this from a member of another site who is a BCWF member of Region 2.

The Region 2 meeting last Wed. night I come to find out the President and Vice President, BCWF Region 2 have taken upon themselves to put forward a resolution to BAN ALL CROSSBOWS, for HUNTING. I was under the impression the BCWF was for creating MORE hunting opportunities, NOT taking them away.
IMHO, this will only serve to drive a wedge between hunters when we need to stand united and work together against outside forces bent on destroying out sport, not attack it from within.
SPEAK UP LET YOUR FEELINGS KNOWN
 

NAHMINT II

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IIRC, About a year + ago when the FRASER River fiasco took place,i remarked that the B.C. W.F is NO FRIEND OF us........this is just another example of top brass pushing their own adgenda forward, scoring points with some unknown ''groups''. the BCWF sure as hell does not represent me as an outdoor person...........BAN CROSSBOWS???? HOW BLOODY ANTI-HUNTING is that !!!:Really Mad::Really Mad::Really Mad::Really Mad::Really Mad:
 

Big Lew

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I just received this from a member of another site who is a BCWF member of Region 2.

The Region 2 meeting last Wed. night I come to find out the President and Vice President, BCWF Region 2 have taken upon themselves to put forward a resolution to BAN ALL CROSSBOWS, for HUNTING. I was under the impression the BCWF was for creating MORE hunting opportunities, NOT taking them away. The BCWF Region 2 President is MARK McDONALD he can be contacted at 604, 838-3214 or
markjmcdonald@telus.net

IMHO, this will only serve to drive a wedge between hunters when we need to stand united and work together against outside forces bent on destroying out sport, not attack it from within.
SPEAK UP LET YOUR FEELINGS KNOWN
I tried to send an email to that email address but my system doesn’t recognize it 9773F597-D8F7-47F9-A9B7-076DF639F3B7.jpeg
 
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Foxton Gundogs

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Sorry Dave, just talked to the guy that sent me the info, it's corrected now.
 

Big Lew

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Thanks, it went through this time...




The banning of crossbows...





David Hertslet
8:07 PM (0 minutes ago)
to markjmcdonald
I have been a successful and ethical bow hunter for well over 25 years...
until this year when I could no longer pull back and hold my 60 lb bow
while in hunting conditions because of a damaged shoulder.
In able to continue archery hunting I bought a crossbow this early summer
and practiced many days and weeks to become proficient with it as I was
with my compound bow. It isn't one of the ultra fast expensive models.
It's about mid range by today's standards. I would like to know why you
are pushing to have all crossbows banned which would take away the
opportunities for people like me to continue hunting as they have in the past.
I can't accept the excuse that a hunter can go buy a crossbow and then
head out hunting without making sure they're proficient with their weapon because
the same applies with guns and just about any equipment in general. Far too often
in this day and age people in a position of authority or in the public eye make 'blanket'
decisions that effect everyone, including those that practice due diligence, rather than
address specific concerns. Please don't be one of those individuals.
Sincerely, Mr David Hertslet, a ethical hunter for 60 years.
 

Big Lew

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Here is his reply...
David,
Thanks for the email. Unfortunately, in the original post there are some facts that are not correct. So I’ll answer your email and correct things and give you some background.
The post on Facebook was incorrect in saying that I wanted a ban on crossbows. This is wrong. The resolution I am putting forward was to propose the removal of crossbows from the archery season. NOT for an outright ban on them. I would never propose such a thing. My proposed resolution would have crossbows moved to the regular season. Nothing more.
My reasoning behind the proposal is this. Crossbow technology has advanced very rapidly even in just the last few years. With IBO speeds of upwards of 400 fps and the ability to incorporate scopes onto the platform, modern crossbows are a far cry from just a few years ago. Kill shots of upwards of 100 yards are now very possible. This makes them distinctly more powerful and capable than any other archery technology. And just as capable as a shotgun shooting a slug.
This is a far cry from archery as it was first incorporated into the Wildlife Act. And puts a crossbow shooter at a very distinct advantage over someone using traditional or recurve equipment or even most compound bows. This change has already been made in Alberta. So I’m not proposing to reinvent the wheel.
I knew that this resolution would bring up some good discussion and there would be people that would disagree. That kind of discussion is healthy. And I don’t even know if it will get past our regional AGM coming up. I do understand your concerns about physical ability to draw a bow. I’m an archer/bowhunter myself and have rotator cuff issues that are starting to haunt me in my early 50’s.
The last thing I want to do is be one of “those people” proposing blanket changes to hunting these days. I’ve spent far too many years fighting for our hunting rights. I wanted to have a decent discussion about a reasonable proposal. If there are other questions I can answer please feel free to email back.
 

Big Lew

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Here is my reply...
To Mark,
Thanks for such a speedy reply and clarification.
Sorry, I can't support your proposal as it stands.
I agree that technology has made huge advancements and improvements for crossbows,
but it also has done so with compound bows and rifles with scopes. When hunting with my
compound bow I was comfortable and consistently accurate up to 50 yards under ideal situations,
but only after several years of practice. At first I limited myself using the compound bow I first
hunted with to a maximum range of 30 yards. Most of the considerable number of deer I've
killed have been under 30 yards even up until the last one. I would expect the same with my
new crossbow.
By using your reasoning, what is next? Rifles with modern scopes, including those with laser,
can now fairly accurately reach out to over 1000 yards. Will this ability be legislated against next?
There will always be those that take extreme shots, experience or not, but trying to take available
tools away is like saying a rifle hunter can't use magnum ammunition or higher powered guns...
or you can't drive a car with over 100 hp on our highways. Respectively, David Hertslet.
 

Foxton Gundogs

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Dave thanks for sharing your reply setting the record "straight" Imho Mr. McDonald is simply saying the bear that is going to kill and eat you isn't a Kodiac its "only" a big Black Bear. Like that matters 2 $hits in the overall outcome. Any attack on legal hunting methods is an attack on hunting, whether it comes from with out or with in
 

Round Boy

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A motion such as this should be out of order. If the BCWF had proper bylaws and a constitution that upheld hunters rights this motion would not be considered. This is the best example that the BCWF is not a hunter organization but a wildlife organization something that many hunters get confused.
 

vetteman

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I sat on the BCWF Resolutions Committee when it was chaired by Bill Bosch. Unfortunately for the hunters and anglers in BC the resolution process left a lot to be desired. I remember archiving dozens and dozens of resolutions that were passed at the AGM's yet were never acted on. Being passed at the AGM requires the various committees to act on them but as I saw, this doesn't always happen. If this proposed resolution was to be approved at the regional and provincial level for presentation at the AGM, and it was passed at that level, which I doubt that it would, I'd be surprised if the appropriate committee actually acted on it. I'd be even more surprised if FLNRO would consider acting on it. That being said, I'm opposed to any regulation change that would place even more restrictions on the resident hunter unless it's a science based or safety based change. Just my ever so humble opinion.
 

NAHMINT II

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Dave thanks for sharing your reply setting the record "straight" Imho Mr. McDonald is simply saying the bear that is going to kill and eat you isn't a Kodiac its "only" a big Black Bear. Like that matters 2 $hits in the overall outcome. Any attack on legal hunting methods is an attack on hunting, whether it comes from with out or with in
Right on JIM, :Oh Yeah!:......... Like the govt. saying, you can only drive electric cars on weekends 'cause they are TOO efficent and the gas companies will loose money !!!!!
 

CF8889

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# of tags and opportunities is based off success rates. Crossbows are getting way to advanced and are effecting success rates. They either remove crossbows from archery season. Or they'll remove tags and opportunities.

They will also probably follow Alberta's regs. If you have a disability that a doctor says effects you're ability to pull a compound bow, you can use a crossbow.

If you are able body and can shoot a compound bow but chose a crossbow because it's easier to kill things and you have a higher success rate with it... maybe taking the easy road isn't the best long term.

Well.. I don't have the answer. Nor do I know what the right answer is. But I'd take everything into consideration before making a vote.

Anyways. I'm not gonna respond from here. Just food for thought.
 

Big Lew

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Ok folks, I got another response from Mark McDonald just now...
Re: The banning of crossbows...
"Further to our discussion, I just wanted to let you know that the resolution about crossbows
will not even be hitting the floor at our AGM next weekend. I have withdrawn it due to the
online backlash."
I responded...
"Thanks again for keeping me up to date on the situation.
I also thank you for being open minded enough to listen and
take the concerns of bow hunters into consideration."
 

vetteman

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Ok folks, I got another response from Mark McDonald just now...
Re: The banning of crossbows...
"Further to our discussion, I just wanted to let you know that the resolution about crossbows
will not even be hitting the floor at our AGM next weekend. I have withdrawn it due to the
online backlash."
I responded...
"Thanks again for keeping me up to date on the situation.
I also thank you for being open minded enough to listen and
take the concerns of bow hunters into consideration."
Mark is a good guy and very level headed. I know him quite well and I applaud his decision to withdraw this proposed resolution. It's great when things like this can be resolved civilly without the kindergarten mudslinging that we unfortunately see all to often. Good on those of you who voiced your opinion to Mark.
 

Big Lew

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Mark is a good guy and very level headed. I know him quite well and I applaud his decision to withdraw this proposed resolution. It's great when things like this can be resolved civilly without the kindergarten mudslinging that we unfortunately see all to often. Good on those of you who voiced your opinion to Mark.
I always try to be respectful rather than belligerent when voicing my concerns and opinions as I would hope people do to me. Usually it helps.
 

Bow Walker

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I got a reply to my email to Mark McDonald....

Here it is - and it does my heart glad.
Dan

At no point have I ever suggested a BAN on crossbows for hunting. As someone who has shot archery gear for a good portion if their life, I know that people like their weapon of choice. What I did suggest is that we have a discussion about moving crossbows out of the archery season. That’s it. The fellow that posted this online had information that was not true from his source. And this has blown this completely out of proportion. This regulation change is already in effect in much of Canada and many jurisdictions in the US and I believe that at some point we will see it here in BC as well. Won’t be from me though.

After todays mess blew up, it was obvious that my only course of action was to withdraw the proposed resolution. It’s dead.

Unfortunately, instead of having an adult discussion on the subject, the BCWF, the Region and myself and my vice president have been dragged through the mud again. The fed suffered through a few years of disfunction and we were just getting over that. Back to square one.
 

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I’m glad the motion is withdrawn. The explanation changes nothing. The BCWF is a wildlife federation not a hunter federation. I hope that message gets thru to hunters in BC. The sooner the better.
 

IronNoggin

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Largely missed all of this until today.

Here is my direct reply to this fellow on the other Forum (where he posted pretty much his same response to Big Lew here):

Marsh Hawk;2133629 said:
... Being as we are all adults, I decided that it was time for us to have an adult conversation about the use of crossbows...
NOT in my mind's eye. You chose to intentionally fan flames of dissent within the hunting community (that you are "supposed to represent") based solely upon your own personal bias against crossbow use. The reasons you go on to cite are nothing but pure bullshit. Many have already pointed out the fact that modern compound bows are certainly not less capable than crossbows in the hands of an experienced shooter. I was, and have many buddies who are. What they are capable of would stun many, and even though I run with a modern crossbow, I will openly admit several of these fellows are MUCH better than I ever will be with my horizontal bow.

In my opinion, you submitted your resolution for very personal and selfish means, not at all what you came on here to try and convince us was the rational behind that move.

As this (**) storm has progressed, I’ve decided that I will not be proposing this resolution at the Region 2 AGM next weekend. It’s dead.
Correct decision IMO. Unfortunate it took public exposure of your intent to get you to do so.

If there is any shame in this matter, you are the one wearing it.
I would like to thank Foxey for bringing this to our attention, for it is my thought that if he had not, you would still be pushing your private agenda in this regard.

In closing you can be thankful I am not a Region 2 Member. If I were, I would be doing everything in my power to see you removed from any position wherein you might be construed as "representing" hunters of any ilk whatsoever.

Ticked,
Matt
 
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Foxton Gundogs

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I agree with Vetteman, Mark is a good guy we are(were? his choice) friends and I believe it was the VP in his ear. Apparently the VP got a 6x6 bull elk with his bow and morphed into an archery purist. I resent their point that because the first post sent to me from another forum failed to differentiate between "The BCWF" and "BCWF Region 2" and the fact that the "ban" would only apply to archery season. Both Moot Points imo. I also reject their reasoning that x-bow technology has advanced and therefore they are no longer pure archery equipment, ALL hunting equipment has advanced to a point that our fathers/grandfathers would not recognize the sport as they knew it. And to do it as a resolution without testing the waters first, seriously, did they not expect backlash. I fought hard against the LEH cutbacks and the G-bear ban and this is no exception. I hope Mark will accept this as "nothing personal, just business" I enjoy his company in the blind but friend or not I will continue to fight hard against anything I percieve as an attack on the few hunting privileges we have left.
 

Big Lew

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I can understand that some people are concerned that some modern crossbows
are becoming more like rifles when equipped with scopes but they're still a far cry
from any gun. It doesn't matter what archery or firearm hunters use, there will always
be those that attempt shots beyond either their or their equipment's ethical range.
I'll bet that our ancient ancestors began throwing rocks at their prey or attackers as soon
as they thought a 'hail Mary' lob might get lucky and knock them down. Nobody was
able to convince anyone that when catapults were invented they shouldn't be used as
it wasn't 'fair chase' or ethical. When decent range finders came onto the scene many
decried about allowing them as well.
I can't support anything that takes away a hunter's ability to kill humanely rather than
wound. Scopes on rifles made a huge difference from the days of iron sights, especially
with the type of open terrain such as large logging slashes most of us hunt today.
 

Biggyun68

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Mark is president and cannot bring forward any resolutions but has to defend them once they are put forward, like they were his own.
Having sat on the Region 2 board as a vice president with Mark the behind the scenes politics are intense and, yes, not always in the best interests of hunters as a whole.
Mark got pretty beat up on Facebook but that is the job of a President to suffer the slings and arrows so to speak.
I did not agree with this resolution and feel its a distraction given the state of the sport fishery in region 2, no recovery of access to FSR's, lack of enforcement, antis in municipal governments, and the need to address conservation issues with in Region 2 such as predator control and the growing number of species reintroducing themselves back into the region such as... Elk, Grizzly Bear, Moose and Sheep
 

Foxton Gundogs

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Mark is president and cannot bring forward any resolutions but has to defend them once they are put forward, like they were his own.
Having sat on the Region 2 board as a vice president with Mark the behind the scenes politics are intense and, yes, not always in the best interests of hunters as a whole.
Mark got pretty beat up on Facebook but that is the job of a President to suffer the slings and arrows so to speak.
I did not agree with this resolution and feel its a distraction given the state of the sport fishery in region 2, no recovery of access to FSR's, lack of enforcement, antis in municipal governments, and the need to address conservation issues with in Region 2 such as predator control and the growing number of species reintroducing themselves back into the region such as... Elk, Grizzly Bear, Moose and Sheep
Like my Dad always used to say "The working class can kiss my ass, I got the bosses job at last"
 

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Jim....good on you for bringing this to attention.
Another prime example of hunters eating hunters.
Where’s the line get drawn on right or wrong....recurve, compound or crossbow?
Where do we draw the line on what’s to be used for a hunting rifle....nothing bigger than a 30-06 or maybe just something with open sites.
We can’t have those marksmen shooters out there that have honed their skills to punch 6” groups at 800 yards.
The sooner some of these clowns and organizations get out of hunting decision making the better off we’ll be.
 

Bow Walker

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Word has it that the "ministry" is "is already assessing optics for archery equipment, although it’s not high on their priority list."

This from a good source.
 

Bow Walker

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The fact that anyone can pick up a crossbow, and with minimum practice, take it out hunting causes me a bit of concern. Yes - the same can be said for compound bows and traditional bows as well...that also raises alarm bells for me and has done for a long time.

Taking crossbows out of the early season bow hunt is something that is coming - it may not be for a while, but it will get here eventually. I strongly suspect that the optical sights for crossbows will be 'regulated' down the road too.
 

Big Lew

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Well, in one way I'm glad my hunting career is almost over...just too much of this drama
and regulation. I wasn't happy when the youth season was included in the archery season
but it was. I would have preferred that the archery season be split... I won't be happy when
and if crossbows are excluded either. The only reason I took up archery in the first place was
to be able to hunt the first week of September without worrying about inexperienced or
careless rifle shooters. The writing is on the wall as you suggest. There are too many hunters
using various hunting aids not available in the past while at the same time the hunting quotas
and regulations haven't properly adjusted to deal with over harvesting. More COs are needed
as well as eliminating spikes and 2 points would be a good start. None of us want to see restrictive
regulations but it has to happen. We already have rules about the use of motorized vehicles and
I suspect more are coming. Closing hunting during the peak of ruts has started and will be expanded.
Loss of habitat and reduced access is squeezing the hunting population into smaller and smaller
areas which isn't sustainable for healthy game populations either. Just the opinion of a disgruntled
old fellow from the past when game was plentiful almost everywhere and there were few rules.
 

Bow Walker

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Things change and evolve as more and more pressure is put on the sport from "outside" interests who think they know what is best and how to manage the sport. I'm not happy about that but it is getting to be a fact of life.
 

IronNoggin

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... Taking crossbows out of the early season bow hunt is something that is coming - it may not be for a while, but it will get here eventually. I strongly suspect that the optical sights for crossbows will be 'regulated' down the road too.
These are issues I WILL Fight tooth and nail.
Had enough of the "interference" from those that think they somehow know what's best for me & the ways I hunt.
I do have some rather strong backing for such a cause btw, and collectively we will make such a process as painful as possible for those who propose it.

Should those efforts fail, there's always an alternative...
Robin Hood well understands of what I suggest...

Irritated,
Nog
 
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I got a reply to my email to Mark McDonald....

Here it is - and it does my heart glad.
I have been following this on another site which has now locked the thread. I have not seen anything to suggest any individual has been drug through the mud as stated in the reply. Public opinion has long been the driving force behind political change and the public seems to have spoken loud and clear on this. As a rifle hunter I have nothing to gain or loose here but I agree any attempt to reduce opportunity for any facet of the hunting community is wrong. For an organization that is supposedly there for the purpose of creating more wildlife to provide additional opportunities I find it even more disturbing.
 

Foxton Gundogs

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OK so here is what I understand at this point. The resolution has been rescinded, lets hope it was just poorly thought out and the whole issue is gone forever. I know Mark he is a good guy who is level headed and am pretty confident that now the community's feelings have been made loud and plain we can forget about this issue get on to other things. BUT be vigilant there are always other threats to our hunting opportunities.
 

Foxton Gundogs

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It's pretty fair in the south too, Quesnell Lake even has a catch and release Fathers Day tournament
 

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As for how ''good''cross bows are,. it takes practice, just like long or recurve bows.......take our resident WEATHERMAN...RICK,. i'd rather have a new shooter shooting at me with a cross bow than RICK with a compound..... applies to rifles too, the old.30-30 ,or a .340 weatherby or mabe a .300STW
:Yikes!:
All center fires but some a little more efficent AND accurate !!
Did you know, in B.C. with the exception of BUFFALO (BISON), any centerfire rifle from .22 centerfires to the .700 NITRO EXPRESS and everything in between is perfectly legal for big game??...........just because SOME are more ''accurate // fitting'' than others does not enter into the picture........they are center fires.
long bows,recurve , compound, crossbows and the several in between ....they are all bows...

mabe we should have a crossbow/ muzzle loader season only...then this would shorten the rifle crowds season a bit... but then,would it be flinters only or caplocks only ,should we include INLINES WITH SCOPES TOO.
so ya see where this splitting hairs gets us....Forgot to mention SHOTGUN ONLY .....na,:trouble_maker: i stirred it enough !!!
 

Bow Walker

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Modern day crossbows can be accurate and lethal out to almost 75+ yards if a person practices often and long enough.... Just ask Matt.

I think a concern (just one of many) with trying to kill a game animal at those distances is the fact that the animal can and does hear the shot before the arrow can do its job. The animal - upon hearing the sound of the released arrow will flinch, jump, move a step, or otherwise cause the arrow to miss the vitals.... leading to (at best) a missed shot, or at worst a wounded animal.

Follow up shots in archery are not the easiest thing to do. It takes a long time to load another arrow and be able to send it downrange. The animal has more than enough time to escape - either scott-free or wounded. This is why ethical archery hunters will limit themselves to up-close-and-personal ranges when hunting. Ranges that are not beyond 35 - 40 yards.

The term "jumping the string" is a very real problem for the archer.
 

Big Lew

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Well, as I said in my email, I've shot many deer with my compound bows and almost
all of them have been well under 40 yards. Only one was over 40 yards but it was under
ideal conditions...a large buck standing broadside with his 4 does on a small ridge and
seemingly confident and relaxed that I couldn't get to him from the parallel adjacent
ridge I was on. It was 47 yards and hit exactly where I intended it, just behind his front
leg and a bit below halfway up his side. He didn't go far as he left a heavy blood trail.
I don't expect to try for deer beyond 50 yards with my crossbow. (if it ain't broke, don't fix it)
 

olympia

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Word has it that the "ministry" is "is already assessing optics for archery equipment, although it’s not high on their priority list."

This from a good source.
That's sucks cause Cabela's has this range finder bow sight that looks pretty nifty, it's on sale for $300 and I was eventually going to get one
 
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