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BRITISH COLUMBIA'S PREDATOR ISSUE....THE PERFECT STORM

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Turnagain

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This is my opinion and mine alone....I’m sure there will be disagreement from others much more knowledgeable.

Over the years there has been a noticeable occurrence in BC, the increase in predator numbers. The first predator that everyone seems to get ramped up on is wolves....they are seen the most, heard the most and their tracks are everywhere.
33BAAD04-7ACE-480C-986B-5F482CF6E60C.jpeg

When wildlife disappears “everyone cries wolf”.....they are part of the problem but not the complete problem.
It’s the combination of all predators and our own human footprint giving predators an edge that has dropped ungulate numbers to a fraction of what it was in the past.

I’m going to throw out what I see as having gone wrong and maybe a couple of solutions.
Lets start with wolves:
More and more outdoors people have spoken out about the wolf epidemic....what’s brought it on?
My belief is that the wolf increase can be blamed directly on lack of management due to apathy within the bureaucratical system.
If anyone thinks the anti hunting, wolf hugging segment has not weaseled its way inside the door of provincial wildlife policy makers....you better give your head a shake and think again.
Sure, they say the public directs them....really who’s going to manage anything under the directions of an uneducated mass.
The general public knows little about wolves other than what Walt Disney or Farley Mowat has passed to them.
They’re iconic loveable creatures.
DACB68F9-78B3-45AA-8348-8467E9F53B3C.jpeg
We’ve had drops in ungulate species in BC before, either due to overharvest back when wildlife fed the province or a built up predator load.
This isn’t the first time deer, moose, elk, caribou....etc has crashed.
It’s the first time we’ve sat back, watched it happen and done nothing.
Unless you want to classify a wolf study as ungulate enhancement.

In the past when wildlife went into decline corrective measures were taken...sometimes drastically.
In the early part of the last century, strychnine was the tool of choice for immediate results in predator reductions. Later on 1080 became more common due to the belief it was more target specific.
Either way, when wildlife was in short supply and needed a boost these two “lethal” chemicals were the quick fix.
Bullets and traps/snares were not efficient enough at removing the numbers of predators in a timely economic fashion.

Around 20 years ago the BC government placed a moratorium on the use of 1080 and that was the end of any legal, chemical predator control.
Since then traps, snares and hunting have been the only form of management. We’ve had the odd aerial shoot to aid in the recovery of certain species. For the most part these aerial shoots have not been carried over broad enough area or an extended time.
A couple of recent ones have gone on long enough that positive results are being seen.

About the time 1080 got thrown out the window everyone and no one wanted to deal with the growing wolf problem. The COS wanted to deal with problem wolves, trappers working under the BC cattleman’s wanted to solve the cow killing problem and the trapline holders didn’t want anyone else screwing around with “their” wolves. There was a lot of conflict, wolf removal was hit and miss and in the meantime wildlife lost.

Wolf numbers grew, wildlife crashed and in an attempt to save a few species, such as Mountain Caribou....wolf studies were instigated.
Then it gets even dumber.

For an example....the Quesnel Highlands caribou/wolf project.
Mountain Caribou were seen to be in trouble and predation to to wolves was looked at as the culprit.
Of course the reasoning for all the wolf predation was excessive logging of caribou habitat and all the snowmobile trails giving the wolves hiways into the caribou’s wintering grounds.
So a fix was in the works....first shut out the snowmobiles.
Step 2 was a trapping / collaring / sterilization program on wolves...the odd wolf was euthanized.
This program ran for a few years then ran out of steam. After a 2 or 3 year stall it was fired up again. One of the first things done was a wolf count and guess what.....the wolf numbers had doubled after the initial project start.
Step 3 came into play. This time it would be a repeat of the trapping / collaring /sterilizing and euthanizing with another component.
A moose reduction was called for.
Moose were all but eradicated in the area surrounding the caribou habitat because someone had the bright idea once the moose were gone the wolves would pack up and leave.
Guess what, it didn’t happen.
Someone with a biology degree forgot that wolves are opportunists and in the case of this study...livestock became the alternate prey.
What I find interesting in this fiasco is that when the peer review on the Quesnel Highlands Caribou Recovert Project was written, Bob Hayes the author stated that the final step to enable recovery was not done...removal of the wolves.

The failure of this project and the waste of millions of dollars lies squarely on the shoulders of our Director of Wildlife at that time.
The biologist spearheading the wolf project had his cards in order to take out the wolf packs that were hammering these caribou when he was ordered by the Director that no wolves were to be aerial gunned because “the wolves would be at a mechanical disadvantage”.
The biologists working on the project were disappointed, to say the least.
What a joke...but this is an example of the idiocy we are dealing with...the caribou are all but gone...the moose numbers were cut to a fraction of what they were....but wolf populations increased.

Next came the increase in livestock conflicts....hardest hit at first were the Chilcotin/Cariboo and the Peace. As the problem grew it spread to the north and south.
Educated wolves that were dependant on livestock.
E36B6C8E-AA88-443E-8CCF-A4A8EFFF0F8B.jpeg
The BCCA jumped on board, hiring more mitigators with the only qualification being that they held a valid B.C. trappers license. The trappers course issued in this province does not provide the know how to trap wolves when you are dealing with packs that are eating up someone’s pay check.
There were/are some very good trappers working under the BCCA Livestock Protection Program.
Done right the problem is solved.
C7833349-6284-4216-9E53-262E54BE0B01.jpeg
On the other hand some trappers are nothing more than trainers.
Teachers of wolves on how not to ever get caught in a trap or snare like their packmate did.
2E519BCA-732E-45F0-80B2-6F242E348A14.jpeg



To be continued......
 
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ianwuzhere

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I agree with the lack of follow thru by the "director of wildlife". It appears much more could be done to help but is not. Its tuff with lower ungulate populations to get people into hunting and conservation because driving around backcountry for days to see few wildlife isn't very appealing to most.
The one thing im not sure if I believe is the snowmobile trails allowing pathways for the wolves to cover more ground and gain access to other areas easier. Tho it makes sense, I have followed many wolf tracks and have snowmobiled a fair bit of places and have yet to see this. What I have witnessed is a dog will come across the sled trax but only follow it a short ways before veering off elsewhere. I have seen wolf tracks follow plowed logging roads up to about 3km range before tho.
Not as many people have trapping cabins and put in the work it is to trap cuz the payout is not like it use to be. Wolves are very spooky animals and are rarely seen long enuf for a clear shot making hunting them difficult.
I remember reading books about wolf populations devastating ungulate populations from years ago-in the 60's-70's in Northern BC, and the poisoning and aerial work that was put in worked very well and for the next 5+ years the ungulate populations started to rebound drastically.
Its tuff to know the common sense thing to do but feeling almost helpless and just not able to get out as much as youd like to help control predator #'s.
Its tuff to find animal numbers like they once were..

-Prey can take a lot of pressure, but not from humans and predators at the same time so you be the judge..

-please continue :)
 

Big Lew

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I can't for the life of me understand the reluctance to use heli-culling. What a bunch of B--l S--t
using the excuse of mechanical disadvantage for the wolves. They're bowing to the emotions of
the masses that have little or no idea of the serious problem. "Oh the poor defenseless cuddly
and majestic mythical creatures.' Wolves do have an advantage...they have no emotional baggage
to concern themselves with as they go about their killing not only for food, but for the fun of it as well.
 

gcreek

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I agree with the lack of follow thru by the "director of wildlife". It appears much more could be done to help but is not. Its tuff with lower ungulate populations to get people into hunting and conservation because driving around backcountry for days to see few wildlife isn't very appealing to most.
The one thing im not sure if I believe is the snowmobile trails allowing pathways for the wolves to cover more ground and gain access to other areas easier. Tho it makes sense, I have followed many wolf tracks and have snowmobiled a fair bit of places and have yet to see this. What I have witnessed is a dog will come across the sled trax but only follow it a short ways before veering off elsewhere. I have seen wolf tracks follow plowed logging roads up to about 3km range before tho.
Not as many people have trapping cabins and put in the work it is to trap cuz the payout is not like it use to be. Wolves are very spooky animals and are rarely seen long enuf for a clear shot making hunting them difficult.
I remember reading books about wolf populations devastating ungulate populations from years ago-in the 60's-70's in Northern BC, and the poisoning and aerial work that was put in worked very well and for the next 5+ years the ungulate populations started to rebound drastically.
Its tuff to know the common sense thing to do but feeling almost helpless and just not able to get out as much as youd like to help control predator #'s.
Its tuff to find animal numbers like they once were..

-Prey can take a lot of pressure, but not from humans and predators at the same time so you be the judge..

-please continue :)
You have put a lot of positive thought to this. I believe you are right that sled tracks aren't a real threat. Have you seen a caribou trail? If very many of them you can nearly drive a car up their pathways in winter.

Good start Mike!
 

gcreek

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I can't for the life of me understand the reluctance to use heli-culling. What a bunch of B--l S--t
using the excuse of mechanical disadvantage for the wolves. They're bowing to the emotions of
the masses that have little or no idea of the serious problem. "Oh the poor defenseless cuddly
and majestic mythical creatures.' Wolves do have an advantage...they have no emotional baggage
to concern themselves with as they go about their killing not only for food, but for the fun of it as well.
Dave, as Mike mentioned, there are those in places of power that have their own agendas. They are not friends of any wildlife.
 

Turnagain

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Through all of this procrastination on behalf of government to lower wolf numbers, bickering over who’s wolves they were when some needed removal.....there was one constant...wolf packs grew, wolves spread out and game populations crashed.
Back when rural British Columbians lived off moose, elk, caribou and deer meat they made sure that the supply was there. A lot of these families actively trapped to earn an income...many raised livestock as well. An over supply of fur covered competition didn’t fit into the picture.
Wolves have always had high surges in populations....in the late 1930’s and early 40’s numbers got higher than normal.
Bounty programs were in place up until the mid 1950’s so there was incentive to kill wolves.
Strychnine was readily available and you can bet it was used.
When the bounties were ended the BC government took to dumping poison baits throughout the province in the late 1950’s and early 60’s.
Wolf numbers were hammered....in the Chilcotin/Cariboo it was rare to see a wolf track after the poison program took place...game populations sure increased thow.
Then in the late 70’s and early 80’s wolves were back on the increase, big packs started to show up...game numbers dropped and livestock predation picked up.
At that time the BC COS had predator specialists that dealt with livestock/predator conflicts.
These guys had a full tool basket to use...firearms, traps/snares and compound 1080 poison.
It was standard procedure to use all of these tools where applicable and the complete removal of offending packs could be achieved.
Then the moratorium on 1080 came into play in the late 1990’s and things started to fall apart.
The only way left to deal with problem wolves was to shoot or trap them...not many could take out a complete pack of problem wolves under these new rules.
AC5DE2AB-446C-46B8-8FE5-E5F1934580B4.png
A few guys became specialists at what they were doing with traps but couldn’t cover the entire province. Rules became tuffer when it came to trapping problem wolves...a lot of times trapline holders were upset when these predator control specialists were trapping on their lines even thow they did not want to bother trapping wolves due to the low value of a wolf pelt for the time put into preparing it for market.
Then you also had to consider the bleeding heart element while wolf trapping and to top that off with having to deal with incidental catches.
A predator mitigator on a wolf call is there to remove wolves...once in a while the wrong animal gets caught....it’s easier to turn it loose unharmed than it is to dispatch it and deal with the paperwork.
Try this for a rush!
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More coming later....
 
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gcreek

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Mike, there is a Newspaper clipping in the book Trail To Crazy Man's Creek from the Prince George Citizen dated 1951 I believe.

Not word for word but it states the Strycnine program of the 50's was funded by the federal govt. in order to save sustenance animals for the Native population.

At that time, Thomas Squinas, whom you knew and was a fine Native trapper, hunter, rancher, cowboy, fence builder from this area, killed a lot of wolves and told me many of his experiences before his death in the mid 80s. We need more of him today.

The old fella in your photo adding to his memories. He will be here on Friday.
 

PortSide

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There are many hundreds of hunters in BC. I have taken it upon myself to wolf hunt every time I deer hunt (Alberni Valley). Despite hundreds of miles of back roads I have yet to hear wolves or see tracks. In the past 4 years (anecdotally) I am seeing severe decline in BT. You could see 30 BT in back pastures just a few years ago.... steady decline lucky to see 6 to 10. On the other hand forest destruction has boomed. We live on a logging truck route ... I mean expressway. Everything is being hauled out of this valley from sticks to old growth. Black Tail is a forest animal. What forests? Google up Somers Road Port Alberni and have a look at what Hiroshima/Nakasaki looked like. Corporate greed rules... few loggers in the woods despite the immense mechanized cutting. Wealth for the corporate few, unemployment for loggers, deer restrictions for hunters. The NDP recently got caught in a lie about % mature forest retention to total forest lands. They tossed in lands that have never seen a tree to fudge their numbers. In truth they admit 16 years of corrupt lobbied out Liberal governance has left a catastrophic problem and "it will take time to turn it around". BS ... just stop issuing permits... ain't happening outside my front window.

“BC just has to do what the rest of the western world has moved to now, which is moving towards a second growth forest industry. We want them to do it sustainably, and let’s keep the remnants of the old growth for endangered species, for tourism, for the climate, for clean water and wild salmon.” National Post

We got urban wolves to deal with too.
 

Turnagain

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There’s a few guys that will say I’m full of crap on this but I’ve come to the belief that at present we are almost dealing with two different forms of wolf in this province.
We’ve got the “real” wolf that maintains pack structure, holds a territory and lives of ungulates. This type of wolf, for the most part is found in the northern part of the province...I will add, for the most part little livestock is raised there and there’s a smaller human footprint.
These wolves are trapable and until recently their numbers could be kept a bit in check.
This picture shows the take on a one week trip.
0446B491-2222-4E7C-855E-07E514234F76.jpeg

Now lets look at the southern part of BC where the “junk yard dog” wolf is more common than not.
These wolves don’t maintain a territory, the packs tend to break up, disperse and co-mingle and they’ve found livestock to be a readily available food source.
To top it off in parts of the province there’s a healthy population of feral horses that provide the protein to boost wolf numbers.
My belief is these wolves have had their attitude changed due to being shot at, trapped at and hung by humans with the end result of only part of the pack being removed most of the time.
Many times they are almost “untouchable”. These wolves have been educated to ovoid trap sites that use any form of attractants that ties to other wolves.
The reason being that they’ve associated other packs with their buddies being taken out in the past.
The cause of this is to much tampering by trappers that either don’t have the time or knowledge to remove the complete pack...therefor after a few generations of watching their packmates choke out in a snare or not being properly dispatched after being trapped or even pulling free from an inferior trap themselves...we’ve created some awfully hard to deal with canines.
I could be wrong but this is my belief.
Here’s a special one...in just over 2 years this male wolf and his pack turned close to 100 head of cattle into turds.
The man that trapped him at the time said “That’s the toughest wolf I’ve had to deal with in over 40 years of doing this”.
He must have meant it....after dealing with hundreds of problem wolves in his career he’s the last guy I thought would ever have any form of a wolf mount done.
It’s in my house....a gift from the man I consider one of the best wolf trappers ever....his kid is another in that league.
3183FC12-CE53-4122-8322-9DAD310393CF.jpeg

More later...
 

Turnagain

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So now that I’ve gone a bit into how we’ve got ourselves into this predator pit with too many wolves....and I’ll be the first to admit there are others out there that know a lot more about the subject than me.....how are we going to fix this mess.

We will never shoot enough wolves to drop their numbers. It’s a known fact that over 70% of the wolf population needs to be removed annually to keep the numbers at a flat line.
Left unchecked wolves can increase 20% or more in a year.
They breed like rats.

We can’t trap the wolf population to a reasonable number. One of the biggest reasons for this is that too many wolves live in a big chunk of the province where it’s too much of a bother to deal with them.
A lot of traplines are inactive and on the ones being trapped...for the most part, only small numbers of wolves are being removed.
It’s too time consuming for a trapper to hone his skills in order to target wolves hard enough to lower the numbers enough to substantially boost wildlife.
Along with that the financial gain from wolf trapping is minimal.
On top of that there’s the bureaucratical resistance to any plan to reduce wolves to any large degree....remember some of our government policy makers would rather hug a wolf than kill it.

There is a route around inactive traplines and bureaucrats dragging their feet....but some won’t like the answer I’m going to throw out.
Here goes....First Nations people with the desire to enhance ungulate numbers with the realization that predators are the limiting factor.
These people have the legal ability to trap anywhere within their traditional territory.....no matter who’s registered trapline they are on.
They have the constitutional right to be part of wildlife management and if they called for an aerial shoot of predators because the food supply they “depend” on is threatened by predation you can bet that if the Director of Wildlife made the statement “we can’t kill wolves from a helicopter because they’d be at a mechanical disadvantage”.....the fur would fly.

Maybe this needs thought about a bit before we all jump on some makeship wolf reduction scheme....I will add the groundwork has been already laid.
 

Big Lew

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So now that I’ve gone a bit into how we’ve got ourselves into this predator pit with too many wolves....and I’ll be the first to admit there are others out there that know a lot more about the subject than me.....how are we going to fix this mess.

We will never shoot enough wolves to drop their numbers. It’s a known fact that over 70% of the wolf population needs to be removed annually to keep the numbers at a flat line.
Left unchecked wolves can increase 20% or more in a year.
They breed like rats.

We can’t trap the wolf population to a reasonable number. One of the biggest reasons for this is that too many wolves live in a big chunk of the province where it’s too much of a bother to deal with them.
A lot of traplines are inactive and on the ones being trapped...for the most part, only small numbers of wolves are being removed.
It’s too time consuming for a trapper to hone his skills in order to target wolves hard enough to lower the numbers enough to substantially boost wildlife.
Along with that the financial gain from wolf trapping is minimal.
On top of that there’s the bureaucratical resistance to any plan to reduce wolves to any large degree....remember some of our government policy makers would rather hug a wolf than kill it.

There is a route around inactive traplines and bureaucrats dragging their feet....but some won’t like the answer I’m going to throw out.
Here goes....First Nations people with the desire to enhance ungulate numbers with the realization that predators are the limiting factor.
These people have the legal ability to trap anywhere within their traditional territory.....no matter who’s registered trapline they are on.
They have the constitutional right to be part of wildlife management and if they called for an aerial shoot of predators because the food supply they “depend” on is threatened by predation you can bet that if the Director of Wildlife made the statement “we can’t kill wolves from a helicopter because they’d be at a mechanical disadvantage”.....the fur would fly.

Maybe this needs thought about a bit before we all jump on some makeship wolf reduction scheme....I will add the groundwork has been already laid.
I think you have clearly outlined the problem and I also think you have hit on a viable way of acting on an effective culling plan.
 

Turnagain

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Big Lew, a handful of individuals have put a lot of thought into this form of predator management.
At present a select group of FN trappers are being trained in whole pack removal by a couple of the best wolf trappers in the business.
A health monitoring study has been ongoing for ungulates in the region where these “new” wolf trapping specialists will work.
The sole purpose of the health study is to show that disease, climate change and whatever other excuse a bureaucrat can come up with is not the reason for ungulate declines.
So far nothing has shown other than predation.
All involved in this fully realize trapping will not be enough....aerial will be pushed for in the future.
There will not be a social media campaign for this....it will just happen.
 

Turnagain

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KH4, you are right on bears being part of the equation as well.
Wolves are the number on reducer of ungulates....bears are what hold back recruitment.
Bears are just a bit easier to deal with.
Even thow we no longer have a grizzly bear season for licensed hunters these same FN can still pull the trigger.
In the north where I’m talking black bears are limited.
Wolverines are also a problem in some areas due to under utilized traplines.
I hope this thread gets a few guys thinking on this sort of program...what we’ve done hasn’t worked.
As for shooting a wolf you see...pull the trigger!

*One thing more I’d like to add:*
The thoughts and pictures in this thread are mine....I do not want them reposted on any other forum site for discussion.
 
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PortSide

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Bounties worked in the past. We just have to find a way to disguise it. Money talks. Motivate those living in problem areas to hunt by making some Cdn dollars available (not as a bounty) but as a charitable donation towards gear, equipment ... call it education, self improvement etc whatever. As in incentive to build this fund perhaps it could be along the lines of a 50/50 or 25/75 etc.... draw. Just a thought.
 

KH4

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Idaho did it, don't have to re-invent the wheel, Foundation For Wildlife Management . The approach that I find important is that the pay for results not good intentions.

"4WM helps hunters and trappers actively manage wolves by reimbursing them for their operational costs. Trappers easily spend thousands of dollars in fuel, time, and effort while continuously checking traps in the back-country. Without their dedication, wolf populations will continue to reach unacceptable levels and ungulate populations will continue to decline.

F4WM also facilitates educational seminars and demonstrations to help educate our membership, and youth, on ethical methods of wolf hunting and trapping. The more knowledge our membership shares with one another the more successful we become at managing our wolf populations. Furthermore, todays youth are the future of wildlife management, and for that reason, F4WM strongly promotes exposure of our youth to hunting, trapping, and other predator management practices."

https://www.foundationforwildlifemanagement.org/what-we-do
 

gcreek

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Idaho did it, don't have to re-invent the wheel, Foundation For Wildlife Management . The approach that I find important is that the pay for results not good intentions.

"4WM helps hunters and trappers actively manage wolves by reimbursing them for their operational costs. Trappers easily spend thousands of dollars in fuel, time, and effort while continuously checking traps in the back-country. Without their dedication, wolf populations will continue to reach unacceptable levels and ungulate populations will continue to decline.

F4WM also facilitates educational seminars and demonstrations to help educate our membership, and youth, on ethical methods of wolf hunting and trapping. The more knowledge our membership shares with one another the more successful we become at managing our wolf populations. Furthermore, todays youth are the future of wildlife management, and for that reason, F4WM strongly promotes exposure of our youth to hunting, trapping, and other predator management practices."

https://www.foundationforwildlifemanagement.org/what-we-do
This province already has the specialists, those who hold the decisions and the purse strings are who are holding up progress in this matter.

BCCA spent a lot of government money for training wolf trappers to catch one wolf. The results are what we are dealing with today.
Too few realize how smart wolves are, unlike most humans,they can actually learn from their family's or neighbor's mistakes.
 

CF8889

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Working with FN's to trap wolves is about as good as it's going to get.

The tree huggers can't cry fowl on FN's exercising their rights, it will bring more young FN's back into the bush and feeling proud of the work they are doing, it will build a bridge between the RH and FN.... there is a lot of good, that could come from this, on top of helping BC's ungulates.
 

PortSide

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Good that guys are posting. What is the plan going forward? I posted earlier about a vast wilderness provincial park on the north shore of lake Superior in Ontario. Woodland Cariboo were thought extinct until they found a small herd of 30-50 animals in decline due to wolf predation ... proven and admitted. And yet (politics) the prov govt spent tons of money on cameras, studies and reviews of studies. The problem was wolf predation. The result predictable .... this herd that could now be in the 100's .. gone. A couple of days of wolf cull would have saved tons of government idiot spending on nothing. A couple of days of heli wolf cull never even considered. Money talks...support financially those living in the area to hunt wolves. KH4 has it right.

Blaming NDP is a non starter on this issue. The Liberals inherited a Supernatural BC 16 years ago and left us Super Depleted BC in fish, forests and wildlife. The Libs were the most corrupt gangsters in chi chi to ever to form a government in this country and did nothing for fish and wildlife.
 

Big Lew

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Good that guys are posting. What is the plan going forward? I posted earlier about a vast wilderness provincial park on the north shore of lake Superior in Ontario. Woodland Cariboo were thought extinct until they found a small herd of 30-50 animals in decline due to wolf predation ... proven and admitted. And yet (politics) the prov govt spent tons of money on cameras, studies and reviews of studies. The problem was wolf predation. The result predictable .... this herd that could now be in the 100's .. gone. A couple of days of wolf cull would have saved tons of government idiot spending on nothing. A couple of days of heli wolf cull never even considered. Money talks...support financially those living in the area to hunt wolves. KH4 has it right.

Blaming NDP is a non starter on this issue. The Liberals inherited a Supernatural BC 16 years ago and left us Super Depleted BC in fish, forests and wildlife. The Libs were the most corrupt gangsters in chi chi to ever to form a government in this country and did nothing for fish and wildlife.
I totally agree, but this Horgan group isn't stepping up to the plate to fix things one bit as far as I can see.
 

silvertipp

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Thanks for the post it is well thought out and written
So I understand we are educating some of these paks , but what is the lesser evil leave it up to some professionals that can really only afford to target a few paks at a time or take as many as possible.
Either way is still not going to do the job
I would agree with you in getting the natives involved
But let's take it a step further , why not teach them about poison and put a real dent in this problem
It works immediately wouldn't take half the man power or money
Keep it quit and Get the job done
Let's face it the courts will not do anything
To a native when it comes to something like this
Just a thought
 

Big Lew

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Thanks for the post it is well thought out and written
So I understand we are educating some of these paks , but what is the lesser evil leave it up to some professionals that can really only afford to target a few paks at a time or take as many as possible.
Either way is still not going to do the job
I would agree with you in getting the natives involved
But let's take it a step further , why not teach them about poison and put a real dent in this problem
It works immediately wouldn't take half the man power or money
Keep it quit and Get the job done
Let's face it the courts will not do anything
To a native when it comes to something like this
Just a thought
I agree that poison is the most effective, but it also effectively kills anything else that ingests it as well
right down to birds and insects. If they could come up with a product that only worked on canines it
would be fantastic although dying from most poisons is an awful way to go.
 

Round Boy

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I appreciate the insite, thank you for posting. My beef is that there isn't a predator hunting dialogue with our up and coming hunters. When I was young, I learned a lot about hunting from dad, and that's why I am a hunter, but he didn't instill the need to shoot wolves. I never grew up seeing dead wolves, or even live ones for that matter.
Consequently I didn't teach it to my children. Wolf and predator hunting needs to become part of every hunters ambitions.
There is Spring Bear, Turkey, Goose, Duck, deer, Moose, and Elk season.
We don't consider hunting wolves important enough or give it any thought at all. Its WOLF season!
 

silvertipp

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I agree that poison is the most effective, but it also effectively kills anything else that ingests it as well
right down to birds and insects. If they could come up with a product that only worked on canines it
would be fantastic although dying from most poisons is an awful way to go.
I do agree
But at a certain point don't we need to put our ungulates first
Dieing by a wolf ,I would guess is a lot more painful I think
 

Turnagain

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1080 can be canine specific if used properly.
Before the moratorium on its use in BC came into place in the late 1990’s I witnessed it in use....by professionals that could legally use the substance.
Baits were kept small and placed were birds and other smaller animals were less likely to find them.
It removed canines very efficiently.
The old school poison program where large chunks of meat were loaded down with strychnine is what indiscriminately killed anything and everything that fed on it.
 

ianwuzhere

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ive heard a rumour about xylitol. -its like a sugar that if dogs digest enuf can kill them, something about liver failure?
It sux that helicopters cost so much money to operated as id love to see a bunch doing grids trying to locate packs and reducing the numbers.. Very tuff to get the ball rolling on this type of stuff with any politician groups.
 

Turnagain

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I do agree
But at a certain point don't we need to put our ungulates first
Dieing by a wolf ,I would guess is a lot more painful I think
I don’t think I would want a wolf to chew me to death.
The next two pictures I’m going to post are of a calf that was worked over by a couple of young wolves and their 3 pups.
They weren’t real good at killing but the did a great job of chewing. ACA29E06-813D-4A2F-B5D4-96D3EE8B9DA1.jpeg
 

Turnagain

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Here’s a picture of the same calf with the hide skinned back.
Verifying chewed live or dead predator attacked livestock is a wonderful job.
This calf was still alive and dispatched a couple of minutes before these pictures were taken.
I don’t think I’d like to go out this way. 1D2D1590-2FAC-4E36-8ACE-50C762C7B11E.jpeg
 

PortSide

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Go wolf hunting. Raise some money in a fund right here and other forums. Hundreds of us kicking in say $50 or +- Distribute the fund to the 6 most successful hunters or whatever. Money talks. I will anti up. BC Liberals perfected the art of incentive.... lobbying (legalized bribery) and sold out our fisheries and forests. Same as what this fund would do.... incentivise.
 

PortSide

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"In the last few years, experts say the bird colonies have multiplied by the thousands on shorelines across Ontario. Landowners have complained about the destruction of vegetation and fishermen blame the bird's fishy diet for hurting their livelihoods." CBC

So here is what the MNR did (ministry of natural resources) "Ministry of Natural Resources fisheries biologist Mark Ridgway recently wrapped up a six-year study in Georgian Bay and the North Channel designed to answer that question."

That same government BS delay killed off the Cariboo by wolf predation (recognized cause) by study In Pukaskwa Lake Superior Park. As far as Cormorants locals said "enough" and did it themselves.

My brother is a fisher/hunter in Lake Huron/Sudbury. Natural resources are afraid of their shadows (jobs). Locals do the culling ... a meeting is held, the day is set ... the job gets done. Ministry of Natural Resources turns a blind eye.

Culls work because human encroachment on industrial scale has affected natural cycles so we must intervene to compensate.

"Since the launch (NDP) of the wolf cull, caribou deaths have slowed. A herd south of Chetwynd, in northeastern B.C., was down to about 100 animals before the cull and is now increasing annually by nine per cent. " Globe
 
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CanuckShooter

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ive heard a rumour about xylitol. -its like a sugar that if dogs digest enuf can kill them, something about liver failure?
It sux that helicopters cost so much money to operated as id love to see a bunch doing grids trying to locate packs and reducing the numbers.. Very tuff to get the ball rolling on this type of stuff with any politician groups.
I don't know if they are all that expensive, they use them to spread fertilizer on mature trees, it's a matter of what they consider a good return on the investment being. They just don't value ungulates high enough imho
 

Foxton Gundogs

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Just talked to my friends who own White Saddle Air. $2000 an hr. including fuel surcharge.
 

Turnagain

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The price of the helicopter or the value of the ungulates has nothing to do with the stalling of getting on with a predator reduction.
It’s all due to the political backlash that government will have to deal with...coming from the segment of the population that has no clue as to wildlife management.
These people are guided and informed by a select group of “culls” that have manipulated the “sacred” predator...be it a wolf, bear or cougar into a cash cow to line their own pockets.
That’s why the connections and allies need to be formed that will not bend to the political pressure.
First Nations are provincial but they also fall under Federal mandate when dealing with wildlife issues.
Helicopters are part of the picture...I will leave it at that.
 

KH4

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So when and where is the next FN engagement meeting so concerned folks can get involved?
 

Turnagain

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Just talked to my friends who own White Saddle Air. $2000 an hr. including fuel surcharge.
When you consider that the helicopter is only in the air to do the actual shooting and sometime for darting wolves in order to put on collars...it’s economical on a per wolf basis. Rates can be found that are cheaper than $2000 an hour Jim.
Ideally a wolf or 2 in the pack marked for removal are trapped and released with a locating collar well prior to the shoot date....the entire pack is then located when they are in an area that provides good gunning opportunity with a fixed wing aircraft then the helicopter is sent in.
Chopper time is tried to be kept at a minimum.
 

Turnagain

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So when and where is the next FN engagement meeting so concerned folks can get involved?
KH4....where do you live?
Go talk to your neighbours.
The new term going forward in wildlife management is “Collaborative Stewardship”....introduce yourself to your local FN’s...be respectful and tell them you’d like to be involved.
The door might swing open.
 

KH4

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Unfortunately, there are no recognized FN in the West Kootenay, so that outlet is not available. The Ktunaxa in the East Kootenay has respectfully declined to engage with other conservation group stakeholders regarding wildlife management.

This year I'll do my part and get out and do some predator hunting.

But, please keep us up to date on your engagement progress!
 

Turnagain

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Now that we’ve gone over wolves, some of the reasons they’ve got out of hand a some possible solutions....lets look a bit at bears.
And as I said before I’m no expert....there are other forum site contributors whose knowledge far surpasses mine.
Bears are tough on wildlife...as I’ve said before, wolves drop ungulate populations....bears stop the recovery.
They can be a livestock problem but due to them usually returns back to their kill sight they’re easier to deal with than wolves.
A bullet or a foot snare gets the job done.
Here’s a bear killed calf from last spring.
04D7B048-8E54-4D69-8ACE-00723E2467C8.jpeg
9 hours later, here’s the culprit.
The buck stopped there.
AC4A42BA-A260-47F6-8554-7D65B8933335.jpeg
When it comes to ungulates it’s not so easy.
Under our past wildlife management in BC bears were not taken seriously as to the implications they have on ungulate species. Under our current mismanagement grizzlies have been given free rein to desecrate some species.
I’ve spent a bit of time in the mountains and first hand have watched grizzlies kill mature moose, caribou and goats.
Some bears become specialists at cleaning up calving grounds.
A study out of Alaska placed cameras on 7 grizzlies...those 7 bears averaged 34.5 moose/caribou calves each. A couple of these bears were not calf killers and a couple were hogs.
Over 240 moose or caribou calves were turned into turds by 7 grizzly bears.
When you look at the findings from Alaska it’s not real hard to put into perspective how “stupid” the NDP/Greens were when they made grizzly bears untouchable to licensed hunters.
The BC grizzly population was not threatened...government admitted to that. In fact in the last 30 years of the grizzly hunt the bear population pretty much tripled from 6,500 to 15,000.
If our present “ever so special” government had any consideration for ungulates in this province they would have endorsed more an increased more liberal grizzly harvest instead of slamming the door shut.
The grizzly hunt needs to come back....who cares if it just for the hide & head.
It’s for wildlife management.
Here’s a bear that I didn’t eat...looks good in my house....I bet he ate his share of meat.
By the way he’s got a 26” skull...measured officially...not guessed.
F5C4D86E-35A0-4699-A690-F11D52911E9E.jpeg
Hopefully we can see a return of the grizzly hunt in the future....thanks to pressure being put on government by GOABC and some First Nations.
In the meantime what’s going to happen?
I’m sure the COS will be busy with grizzly complaints and there’ll be more SSS.
An interesting note is that one FN group publicly stated they will be managing grizzly bears that are impacting ungulate species within their traditional territory.
I wonder if the NDP/Green whizz kids have ever thought about how many grizzly bears First Nations “wildlife guardians”up north could shoot next fall when the grizzly bears are frequenting gutpiles left by hunters.
I bet it would far surpass the old licensed harvest and I doubt that they will care if it’s a boar, sow or cubs that get a bullet.
 

Turnagain

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CF8889, here’s the initial press statement put out shortly before the ban came into effect.
Since that it’s been stated at meetings that bears will be dying....15E9AF4A-7A41-4228-8E1F-12F18DF45050.jpeg
51DB0086-D0EE-47A3-BFC3-B8940B5BE8C5.jpeg

Notice that the initial statement mentions other groups that the Tahltans are working with....pulling together for a common goal is what “Collaborative Stewardship” is all about.
 

Big Lew

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You Sir seem to be a bit too modest on the subjects of which you speak.
I would suggest that you are much more knowledgeable than you profess to be.
 

Turnagain

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You Sir seem to be a bit too modest on the subjects of which you speak.
I would suggest that you are much more knowledgeable than you profess to be.
Dave, a long time ago I came to the realization that “guys with the most blow have the least show”.
Over 35 years ago, the man I consider the best predator specialist in North America took me under his wing and taught me a thing or two on predators.
Not because I had any more ability than the next guy....he did it because I kept my mouth shut and listened.
He hasn’t extended that offer to many others.
Even thow I’ve been involved in dealing with predation issues my entire adult life and have no problem getting rid of a problem bear or pack of uneducated wolves....Dan or his son Kyle are still my go to team when I need a pack of livestock killing, trap shy mutts removed.
 
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Big Lew

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Dave, a long time ago I came to the realization that “guys with the most blow have the least show”.
Over 35 years ago, the man I consider the best predator specialist in North America took me under his wing and taught me a thing or two on predators.
Not because I had any more ability than the next guy....he did it because I kept my mouth shut and listened.
He hasn’t extended that offer to many others.
Even thow I’ve been involved in dealing with predation issues my entire adult life and have no problem getting rid of a problem bear or pack of uneducated wolves....Dan or his son Kyle are still my go to team when I need a pack of livestock killing, trap shy mutts removed.
I rest my case. This forum is lucky to have you aboard.
 

gcreek

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Learned this week that MOE is going to collar 20 wolves over the next few weeks in area 5-12. I would hope they are lining up an aerial shoot and not peeing more dollars away on studies. As far as using an expensive helicopter, they will be using one to net gun said wolves for collaring.
 
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