Welcome to True North Outdoor Hunting Forum - British Columbia and Beyond

It looks like you haven't created an account yet. Why not take a minute to register for your own free account now? As a member you get free access to all of our forums and posts plus the ability to post your own messages, communicate directly with other members and much more.

Register Log in

Class-action lawsuit over grizzly hunting ban

Thread starter #1

Turnagain

Active Member
Messages
165
Likes
259
Location
Interior BC
A class-action lawsuit was filed today by Ron Fleming against the British Columbia government over the ban on grizzly hunting.
The lawsuit filed in B.C. Supreme Court names the Ministry of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development and the minister Doug Donaldson, alleging the province inappropriately closed the hunt over public opinion and for political or social reasons.
The lawsuit is being supported by Chad Day, President of the Tahltan Central Government stating in a news release that the closure has hurt our people culturally, economically and put many of British Columbia’s communities and dwindling ungulate and salmon populations at further risk.
This will get interesting.
 

Foxton Gundogs

Admin./,Cedar BC
Messages
11,627
Likes
2,651
Location
Cedar
Awaiting the answer(if any)

Mr Andrusak,
I have one simple question, will you as Provincial President and the BCWF support and get behind the Grizzly Bear hunting ban Class Action Suite filed against the BC Government specifically The Ministry of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development and the minister Doug Donaldson, alleging the province inappropriately closed the hunt over public opinion and for political or social reasons.
Will the BCWF finally start standing up for the hunters of BC whom make up the largest base membership of the Federation
I eagerly await your reply.


Thank you
 

KH4

Well-Known Member
Messages
466
Likes
325
Location
Kootenays
It will be really interesting to see how this case is argued. I think the ndp/greens got caught red-handed using it as a political pawn. They say it's not socially acceptable...according to who? Last time I checked recreational drug use was not socially acceptable.... but now it is!

Anyways, it will be interesting because I don't think any laws were broken per-say, so if successful, it will set precedence and pave the way for mandatory scientifically based decisions on wildlife management.
 

REMINGTON JIM

Rem M700 XCR 11 375 H&H Shooter
Messages
5,150
Likes
167
Location
Reg 3 Kammy
Im Pretty sure they will get Compensation as the NDP has NO problem handing out our tax payers dollars ! AS far the Bear hunt getting reinstated i think thats going to be a Stretch at the Best ! The leaf lickers and the flower sniffers control the NDP as do the Green party and both parties are made up of a LOT of the so called LL&FS ( leaflickers & flowersniffers) group ! I'm sure FIRST NATIONS will some how WIN out in all this though - they Always do these days ! jmo RJ
 
Messages
4,047
Likes
2,145
Location
Port Alberni
Guide outfitting company launches class-action suit against B.C. ban on grizzly bear hunt

Seeks compensation for all guide outfitting businesses in the province in light of NDP government December, 2017, ban on the hunt

Gordon McIntyre

Updated: December 19, 2018

A class-action lawsuit has been launched against the provincial government over its year-old ban on hunting grizzly bears in B.C.

The suit alleges the government’s decision was made for inappropriate reasons, did not take proper wildlife management practices into account, and was reached knowing that it would cause harm to the province’s 245 guide outfitters.

“There is a right way and a wrong way the government can do things,” said Vancouver lawyer Joan Young, who filed the suit on behalf of Hazelton guide outfitter Ron Fleming. “Our position is the government is not going about this the right way.

“They pulled the rug out from under outfitters, there was no consultation, this was not a science-based decision, or done for First Nations reasons. It was done for other reasons.

“In our view, that is not appropriate and not legally well-thought out.”

Fleming has been a licensed big-game hunting guide for 45 years and owns the Hazelton outfitter company Love Bros. & Lee.

“To suggest we can just retrain to other businesses or move to the city is absurd and disrespectful of rural communities,” he said.

The Iskut and Tahltan First Nations joined Fleming in criticizing the ban, calling it irresponsible, counterproductive and dangerous.

“The grizzly bear hunting-ban decision by the province was made without adequate consultation with the Tahltan Nation, other First Nations and many other important stakeholders,” said Chad Norman Day, president of the Tahltan central government in Dease Lake. “It has hurt our people culturally, economically and put many of British Columbia’s communities and dwindling ungulate and salmon populations at further risk.”

Jesse Zeman, director of the B.C. Wildlife Federation’s fish and wildlife restoration program, agreed there is “clearly not a science basis” for the ban.

The ban will mean more prey animals such as moose will die, he said.

“And we think, as time moves on, you’ll see an increase in grizzly-human conflicts.”


According to the lawsuit, 118 of the province’s approximately 245 guide outfitters held allocations and quotas for guiding grizzly hunts as of Dec. 17, 2017. On average, about 250 grizzlies a year were killed.

“Guide outfitters have been hit very hard by this decision,” said Scott Ellis, executive director of the Guide outfitters Association of B.C. “If the government is not prepared to fairly compensate these outfitters, they are left with little other choice.”


Undated photo of grizzly bear hunt in British Columbia. PROVINCE

According to the lawsuit, guide outfitters have been active in B.C. since the late 1800s, directly employ 2,000 people, and add more than $116 million to the provincial economy.

All non-resident bear hunters must use a guide outfitter (B.C. residents may opt not to) and a fee upwards of $25,000 US is not uncommon, according to the suit. That fee is paid whether a hunt is successful or not, and grizzly hunts are among the most profitable for guide outfitters.

About a quarter of all North American grizzly bears live in B.C., roughly 15,000 of them, a population the province estimates has been stable for two decades, the suit states.

“Other than a short-lived ban in 2001, grizzly bears have been hunted in British Columbia for hundreds, if not thousands, of years,” it reads. “There was an average of 212 guided grizzly bear hunts each year from 2011 to 2015 in British Columbia. … Historically, resident and non-resident hunters harvest less than two per cent of the B.C. grizzly bear population each year.”

The Wildlife Act allows for the hunting of a variety of big game, including bison, black bear, bobcat, caribou, cougar, deer, elk, lynx, moose, mountain goat, mountain sheep, wolf and wolverine.

The suit claims the minister responsible does not have the legal authority under the Wildlife Act to prohibit the hunting of a specific species, or to regulate or prohibit the grizzly bear hunt for political reasons or because of popular opinion.

It says outfitters were promised allocations and quotas would only be changed for wildlife management reasons such as population change.

In Fleming’s case, he was issued a 25-year guide’s certificate for specific territory in 2013, receiving five-year allocations and quotas for grizzlies, among other big-game animals: Two grizzly bears in a five-year period in the Skeenas, 11 grizzlies in five years in the Ominecas.

The minister in charge, Doug Donaldson, is also named in the suit.

Donaldson told Postmedia by email that the decision to implement the ban was made after months of consultation.

“As part of the announcement, the government committed to work with businesses to assist in their transition away from dependence on the grizzly hunts,” he said. “At this time, it would not be appropriate to comment on the legal claim.”

https://vancouversun.com/news/local...ion-suit-against-b-c-ban-on-grizzly-bear-hunt
..........................................................................

It is my belief that the NDEEPS will have no problem settling this rather quickly with our tax dollars.
I do not for a second believe the hunt will be reinstated however.
And what all this means for the Resident Hunters I cannot even fathom a guess...

Certainly will be pulling for them regardless... :Oh Yeah!:

Cheers,
Nog
 

Head Lice

Long-Time Member
Messages
1,302
Likes
381
Location
Blue house ....
Moment of truth....
Can the Guides, FN's, and RH's all put their differences aside and fight together.
This is the time to do it. The present Provincial Govt. has drawn their foolish decision along urban/rural lines.
Lower mainland urbanites deciding what works for the urban residents.
We, as a group may never have this chance again. At this time it really doesn't matter who spearheads this.
The guide/outfitters have the means to make this happen.
We've seen how fractured and discordant we RH can be.
This one time . . . we have to all pull together.
Just my opinion . . .
 

REMINGTON JIM

Rem M700 XCR 11 375 H&H Shooter
Messages
5,150
Likes
167
Location
Reg 3 Kammy
JUST remember the Guides and Outfitters didn't give a SH*T about us Resident Hunters NOT so very long ago ! I'm totally agains't the Banding of G BEAR hunting BUT im NOT for paying the Outfitters out for lost revenue with TAXPAYER dollars ! :Don't Go There: I would HELP to get the HUNT 's Reinstated and the Hunt Business could go on BUT no money from the PUBLIC coffers ! jmo RJ
 
Thread starter #20

Turnagain

Active Member
Messages
165
Likes
259
Location
Interior BC
RJ....what is wanted is for government to realize that wildlife management decisions should not and can not be a political or populism decision.
It needs to be done based on facts and science.
I’m one guy on this forum that did have grizzly quota....the return of the hunt is what I’d like to see happen.
An over abundant bear population is contridictive to growing ungulate numbers.
 
Last edited:

REMINGTON JIM

Rem M700 XCR 11 375 H&H Shooter
Messages
5,150
Likes
167
Location
Reg 3 Kammy
RJ....what is wanted is for government to realize that wildlife management decisions should not and can not be a political or populism decision.
It needs to be done based on facts and science.
I’m one guy on this forum that did have grizzly quota....the return of the hunt is what I’d like to see happen.
An over abundant bear populations is contridictive to growing ungulate numbers.
Hi Im a BEAR hunter + have taken 2 dozen plus Blackies and 3 G Bears and Being in on LOTs more so I want the G Bear hunt Back to harvest a Couple more myself too ! I totally KNOW how MUCH bears Kill both fawns and calves ! BUT we Cannot PAY private business for POOR Gov decisions ! Its BAD enough we have to PAY FN's what we do ! Sorry BUT the BC TAXPAYERS do not owe any GOABC any MONIES ! RJ
 

gcreek

Beware of fat cooks and solictors for beer money!
Messages
171
Likes
209
Location
West Chilcotin
Hi Im a BEAR hunter + have taken 2 dozen plus Blackies and 3 G Bears and Being in on LOTs more so I want the G Bear hunt Back to harvest a Couple more myself too ! I totally KNOW how MUCH bears Kill both fawns and calves ! BUT we Cannot PAY private business for POOR Gov decisions ! Its BAD enough we have to PAY FN's what we do ! Sorry BUT the BC TAXPAYERS do not owe any GOABC any MONIES ! RJ
Hey RJ, a bunch of your tax dollars just went from Ottawa to Alberta because of political bs over pipelines. This is very similar. Tax dollars out of pocket....... political parties out of office...
 
Thread starter #25

Turnagain

Active Member
Messages
165
Likes
259
Location
Interior BC
Hi Im a BEAR hunter + have taken 2 dozen plus Blackies and 3 G Bears and Being in on LOTs more so I want the G Bear hunt Back to harvest a Couple more myself too ! I totally KNOW how MUCH bears Kill both fawns and calves ! BUT we Cannot PAY private business for POOR Gov decisions ! Its BAD enough we have to PAY FN's what we do ! Sorry BUT the BC TAXPAYERS do not owe any GOABC any MONIES ! RJ
RJ....there’s 2 ways to go into a fight like this.
You can hit hard (in the pocketbook) the way this lawsuit is aimed and dish out an unforgettable spanking.....or you can back peddle, beg and complain because you no longer can chew on a grizzly bear steak.
The last guy that peddled the eat a grizzly line didn’t get to far in keeping the hunt.
I’ll put my support behind Ron Fleming.
 

KH4

Well-Known Member
Messages
466
Likes
325
Location
Kootenays
There's really an interesting fine line when it comes to politics and decisions. Just recently we went to the polls for electoral reform, let the people decide. I'm willing to bet that a large percentage of folks did not educate themselves on the values, merits, and pitfalls of all the possible schemes, but voted anyways in the binding referendum.

On the other hand, we would not want a referendum on the g bear hunt because we know which way it will go, and you could expect that the vast majority is not well educated on hunting, guiding, and wildlife management.

One could argue that those most affected should be the ones that have the say. But you want to refrain from 'hiding' decisions as well, it's definitely tricky!

What the lawsuit is (and should be) about is that ministers and politicians should not be able to make legislative changes based on political will. They cannot make ministries change policies, bypassing all decision making processes. If activities like this prevail, we will only be living in a democracy once day per year, the rest is totalitarianism.

I know a lot of groups will be pushing for more regional management strategies in the "Improving Wildlife Management and Habitat Conservation" engagement activities, so hopefully those who are directly impacted by management can be help direct it, opposed to decisions made in Victoria.
 
Thread starter #27

Turnagain

Active Member
Messages
165
Likes
259
Location
Interior BC
KH4, the new phrase going forward seems to be “Collaborative Stewardship”.....it’s already starting...some aren’t waiting for the “Improving Wildlife Management and Habitat Conservation” concept to kick in....there isn’t time.
 
Last edited:

KH4

Well-Known Member
Messages
466
Likes
325
Location
Kootenays
Well, whatever the buzz word is for 2019/2020, it can not be done from a desk or bank account. Hands have to get dirty and boots must be put on the ground and sacrifices made, it cannot be a compromise between a thousand different people, we're going to get a horse by committee - a camel! Everybody and their dog has been identified and invited as a stakeholder (hate that term, no boundaries) in the "Improving Wildlife Management and Habitat Conservation" engagement. Many have opposing motivations and will be looking out for numero uno and not the true intent: what's best for out habitats and wildlife.

I hope the lawsuit is successful, and hopefully the true intent is how wildlife management was disregarded, and not about compensation.

Oh well, what can you do, the slow moving gears grind away....
 

KH4

Well-Known Member
Messages
466
Likes
325
Location
Kootenays
Build allies, form a plan, set goals and run with it .... you’d be surprised at how a few can do a lot.
I know, i'm more commenting on the fact this gov't process is already becoming drawn out while we are basically in a crisis mode....and how the lawsuit will grind its way through the courts, we all have to wait, nothing will come quick.
 

Foxton Gundogs

Admin./,Cedar BC
Messages
11,627
Likes
2,651
Location
Cedar
Received an 'answer' from BCWF about what I expected. Will post when Computer is back on line.
Well Boys and girls here is the BCWF reply, hope it doesn't surprise you to much. :Na-ahh:

Thank you for your message. The BCWF takes no position on the GOABC class action law suite as this is a matter before the Court involving income lost due to the governments grizzly bear decision. Our members hunt for pleasure and recreation not for profit. Contrary to your opinion the BCWF has championed the interest of resident hunters on many fronts during the last year alone. I have attached some example letters that clearly represent and support the views of BC hunters. The BCWF does not support populism as the basis of decision making in wildlife or fisheries management and we strongly argue that science based decision making must prevail. Letters alone do not sway politicians and for that reason myself or my staff spend a considerable amount of time in various Ministers offices face-to-face. One recent example was the issue of moose hunts in the Cariboo (region 5) region whereby the Tsilqotin First Nation demanded closure of moose hunting to resident hunters and defied government by establishing two blockades. Phone calls to the Minister and Premiers office by myself and staff resulted in government ordering the removal of the blockades and formation of a round table where the BCWF and Tsilqotin First Nation and government are now discussing hunting for all next year. This is how the BCWF represent resident hunter interests.

While you may have your opinion about what the BCWF does or does not do for BC hunters I can assure you that you are simply wrong and I suggest you acquaint yourself with what we are doing rather than simply criticize without the facts. Lets carry on with the conversation if you would like.

Respectfully

H. Andrusak
President
BCWF


My reply, feel free to reply as well.

Harvey, first of all you have no Idea what I may or may not know about the Fed's support of resident hunters and recreational shooters. I am one of the people who were instrumental in helping to bring down the former regime so you could occupy the chair you now occupy. Second Other than a few weekly worded letters the Fed has done nothing to stand behind hunters and shooters. Resident priority has done nothing substantial to gain us anything, LEH is down even further. The G-bear hunt was banned for political purposes under YOUR watch. The access committee has yet do do anything effective to help open the gates wrongly put in place on Vancouver Island. It is time you, The BCWF quit hiding behind the old Charitable Status excuse,, partnering with anti hunting lobby groups like Raincoast with out the courtesy of consultation with Region 2 where Herrling Island is located is unacceptable to most of the BCWF base membership. The Fed needs to get in touch with it's roots and get on board the train powered by we the hunters and shooters of the BCWF who by the way make up the largest percentage of members or get run over. I Have been active for many years including the Allocation battle which got us absolutely nowhere.
The Fed has become a toothless dog laying on the porch and growling at passersby they are becoming a laughing stock of hunters and shooters. I say this not to knock the BCWF but in hope it will kickstart some drive to stand up and fight for your largest percentage of membership.
Hopeful but not optimistic
Jim Fox
BCWF Member
Region 1/2
 
Thread starter #33

Turnagain

Active Member
Messages
165
Likes
259
Location
Interior BC
Harvey’s reply is pathetic....as expected.
His reference to the newly formed Chilcotin roundtable is interesting.....the fact that the Fed sent their non-hunting, Anti hugging Strategic Initiatives guy to that meeting pretty much sums up where they stand there.
I know of other round tables where he’d get shown the door before his butt ever warmed a chair.
I’ll leave any further comments on the Chilcotin deal up to a couple of other posters on this forum that were present at the inaugural meeting of that group.
 

gcreek

Beware of fat cooks and solictors for beer money!
Messages
171
Likes
209
Location
West Chilcotin
Interesting this dolt would imply only BCWF, Chilcotin sand govt. were at the table. Three ranchers, two guides, logging companies and a couple other interest groups were in attendance including yours truly and CH.

BCWF’s Rep made one statement about habitat restoration and nothing else. Was a waste of members finances for him to attend in my opinionated opinion. Hunters and shooters need to drop this crooked, two faced organization like the wet turd they are.
 

Round Boy

Can't keep a beat.
Messages
1,505
Likes
283
Location
In the Gar.
You can say I am just an old fart, but one of the big things in life as you get older is the knowledge that you have been there before. I have. My gut tells me that the very defensive response to Jim's initial letter indicates that there is indeed a problem with credibility in this response. Overall grade: F.
 

Foxton Gundogs

Admin./,Cedar BC
Messages
11,627
Likes
2,651
Location
Cedar
Here's the deal people when the Allocation "fight" was going on I was fully invested I was passionate about it I was on the resident hunters' front lines no Mike(Turnagain) were at each other's throats more than once. We all were used both guides and resident hunters by those at the top of our organizations. To quote The Charge of the Light Brigade "not though the soldiers knew,,, SOMEONE had blundered". The time has come to put our differences aside and join together to face our common enemy. The Email Andrusuk and tell him.
 

Head Lice

Long-Time Member
Messages
1,302
Likes
381
Location
Blue house ....
Just sent a short, blunt message to Harvey . . .
As Jim mentions above, we were 'had' . . .
Horgan & Weaver were plying the crowd . . . shaking hands and promising the moon to anything that moved.
I saw Jim and CC there, although I hadn't met them yet, met FD there, and many old friends from my many years as a member of the Nanaimo F&G Club.
Yes, we were played . . . . can't change that, but sure can learn from it.
BCWF isn't relevant any more . . . . it's an empty suitcase.
 
Thread starter #38

Turnagain

Active Member
Messages
165
Likes
259
Location
Interior BC
Jim, feel free to remove this post if it crosses the line but I’d like to make a comment to what Head Lice stated above.

We were all played....but Horgan & Weaver were only part of the equation.
Behind them were a couple of other players that were on a mission to achieve their own personal goals;

One wanted his back patted in recognition of being the “wildlife guru”, he had a grudge against Guide Outfitters and used the Fed to deal out his back door dirt.

The other hated Outfitters due to his past days in government, he is a non hunter and has his hands in the pockets of the likes of the Moore Foundation and Tides.
This individual also crafted Weavers wildlife mandate that the NDP adopted.

Both of these guys have a revolving door with provincial bureaucrats, such is also true with the Feds current president due to his past history within government.
It’s sad that a select few individuals can drag an organization such as the BCWF into the dirt as they use it to carry out their “getting even”.
A few resignations would start a turnaround.

These guys won’t support this lawsuit and speaking for myself I don’t want any of the 3 at any wildlife negotiations in the future.
The BCWF does have other “straight up” representatives that I do respect.
 
Messages
17
Likes
52
Location
Chilcotin
Well said Mike.
On another note I sat across from Weaver and had him say straight out "forget about the stuff I said against the guide industry during the allocation process I just said that to get votes", true story. there where many on HBC who fell for his BS hook line and sinker.
the other thing Weaver said repeatedly was how him and Al Martin where close friends. Don't expect much out of the federation with the current leadership.
Time for members to clean house.
 

Foxton Gundogs

Admin./,Cedar BC
Messages
11,627
Likes
2,651
Location
Cedar
OK peoples, we have made our points about our opinions of the BCWF, Valid points all. We asked them the questions and now know where they stand on this. Lets not turn this into a free for all Fed bashing. There is more important things to get to. Take that couple of minutes that it would take to post your thoughts and address them to Mr. Andrusuk, Again, here is the Email.

BCWF President Harvey Andrusak
handrusak@shaw.ca
 

Head Lice

Long-Time Member
Messages
1,302
Likes
381
Location
Blue house ....
Did receive a prompt reply this morning from Harvey Andrusak with two attachments from him to Premier Horgan.
My letter was sent yesterday.
He's approachable . . .
Send your questions via the e-mail Jim has posted.
 

Foxton Gundogs

Admin./,Cedar BC
Messages
11,627
Likes
2,651
Location
Cedar
Hopefully the next BCWF AGM will bring forth a more hunter, shooter friendly executive will emerge and have the gonads to pick up the torch and act. Not holding my breath but hope springs eternal.
 
Messages
4,047
Likes
2,145
Location
Port Alberni
Here's the deal people when the Allocation "fight" was going on I was fully invested I was passionate about it I was on the resident hunters' front lines no Mike (Turnagain) were at each other's throats more than once. We all were used both guides and resident hunters by those at the top of our organizations. To quote The Charge of the Light Brigade "not though the soldiers knew,,, SOMEONE had blundered". The time has come to put our differences aside and join together to face our common enemy. .
I was right there with you Buddy, and got into knock down drag out confrontations with many over the issues of the moment as I was led to believe them.
Not bloody often I get hoodwinked.
But not at all above admitting I was.

I've never guided in BC, but did so in Alberta & Saskatchewan, so after some reflection, I decided to do a little looking on my own.
And yep, I have a couple Buddies who do guide in this Province.
Much of what I learned about this fiasco came from them.
The rest I put together on my own.
We were Played, and Played Royally. :Doh!:

Yes, there will always be "differences" between the guides / outfitters and resident hunters.
But, and this is the point: We have one hell of a lot more in common than we do in opposition.
I too believe the time has come (well passed actually) to bury the hatchet, and get on with what needs doing in solidarity.
I hope this is a possibility...

The FN front - I am still uncertain with, due to the fact they simply do not "need" either of us nor our "help"...

Cheers,
Nog
 

Foxton Gundogs

Admin./,Cedar BC
Messages
11,627
Likes
2,651
Location
Cedar
know matter how you spin it guide and outfitters are not friends of resident hunters . but right now we need each other and we may have to side with natives just to fight the anti`s . and goverment
turnigain i have read your posts enough to know you have your own agenda .
 

Buck Naked

Well-Known Member
Messages
445
Likes
71
Hopefully the next BCWF AGM will bring forth a more hunter, shooter friendly executive will emerge and have the gonads to pick up the torch and act. Not holding my breath but hope springs eternal.
Nothing changed last convention, why will things be different this year ?
Clearly there is support for the status quo
 

Buck Naked

Well-Known Member
Messages
445
Likes
71
know matter how you spin it guide and outfitters are not friends of resident hunters . but right now we need each other and we may have to side with natives just to fight the anti`s . and goverment
turnigain i have read your posts enough to know you have your own agenda .
true to some extent. we all want game to hunt, g/os also have $$ on the table and fight to protect their businesses
friendly when needed, but selfish at times also. would expect nothing more, follow the money they say
 
Top Bottom