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First Mac Donalds statue, now Judge BIGBEE

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NAHMINT II

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First Sir John,then the JUDGE in NEWWEST today.....sort of like the painting over GEORGE WASHINGTON mural in California this past week...and the taking down of the STARS and BARS. Icons that were part of forming these 2 great countries....... like those few whiners that stopped soft drinks and peanut butter sandwichs taken to school........................ should I start on LOUIS RIEL'S Statue or his activities ??? na, don't want to ruffle any feathers !!!!!!!!
 

Foxton Gundogs

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Seriously Why did they take down Judge Matt's statue? I want it for my front yard.
 

Foxton Gundogs

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Oh yah the Chilcotin Wars, what about the surveyors and homesteaders that were MASICARED by those poor misunderstood Rez Jumpers. I guess they didn't deserve justice. WTF.
:Really Mad:
 
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NAHMINT II

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they were ''jumpers'' not a fair representing their respective nations.........STILL, whats good for one should be good for ALL.
As long as government keeps favoring one group over another,we will NEVER live in peace and harmony . are we ALL CANADIANS or not????? ANIMAL farm. ......all are equal......some just MORE equal than others......I'm going outside .
 

CanuckShooter

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First Sir John,then the JUDGE in NEWWEST today.....sort of like the painting over GEORGE WASHINGTON mural in California this past week...and the taking down of the STARS and BARS. Icons that were part of forming these 2 great countries....... like those few whiners that stopped soft drinks and peanut butter sandwichs taken to school........................ should I start on LOUIS RIEL'S Statue or his activities ??? na, don't want to ruffle any feathers !!!!!!!!
Didn't the same thing happen with Stalin? And Saddam statues? Seems like it's just a popular thing to do in the world today. To be honest I really couldn't give a hoot if they tear down all the statues they feel necessary.
 

Foxton Gundogs

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No difference than the scams they use today, you know sending letters out to crooks saying they have won something and to come to some Hotel to claim their prize, gotcha. Had they perused them into the jackpine and muskeg there would have been a lot more loss of life you can bet the farm on that.
 

olympia

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hang 'em high !!! tried in a ''legal court of law''
hindsight is 20-20......
Was the court fair or perhaps biased. The account of what happened seems to be from one side only. I have a book called the "chilcotin war" anyone is welcome to read the accounts of BOTH sides. If someone threatened to give your family a sickness because you asked for more wages I think you would be angry. I'm not condoning the killing of White men, but I think there was alot more at play here than just "a bunch of injuns killing folks" they started off working together and somewhere in the mix when the natives were threatened shyt hit the fan. Waddington never did get his road built...alas they did name a mountain after him. Same with Fraser Canyon War, native lady was raped in Boston Bar so the "injuns" said eff this. People fight when messed with once in awhile. I'm just saying I see alot of one sidedness on this particular story. The Chilcotin have there side too!!!
 

Foxton Gundogs

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Was the court fair or perhaps biased. The account of what happened seems to be from one side only. I have a book called the "chilcotin war" anyone is welcome to read the accounts of BOTH sides. If someone threatened to give your family a sickness because you asked for more wages I think you would be angry. I'm not condoning the killing of White men, but I think there was alot more at play here than just "a bunch of injuns killing folks" they started off working together and somewhere in the mix when the natives were threatened shyt hit the fan. Waddington never did get his road built...alas they did name a mountain after him. Same with Fraser Canyon War, native lady was raped in Boston Bar so the "injuns" said eff this. People fight when messed with once in awhile. I'm just saying I see alot of one sidedness on this particular story. The Chilcotin have there side too!!!
So here is how I see it, Jessie James, Cole Younger and more recently Claude Dallas. Here in Canada we have Billy Minor and Albert Johnson. What do they all have in common? They were pushed and harassed by the authorities. They were all "Defending themselves and what they had from the Gov't of the day. the people loved them BUT They were still outlaws, they were hunted down and paid for their "crimes" and THEY WERE ALL WHITE. My point being there have always been injustices to people red white black and brown. But the reaction of the individuals involved was what made them outlaws "justified" or not. Color, race and religion had nothing to do with it. Don't do the crime if you are not prepared to pay for your actions. As for Begbie he was the duly appointed law of the day and he was the kind of judge may of us wish we had today. How many times have I read on here from many many members. The judges are to soft, the law favors the criminals bring back the death penalty etc, etc. You can't have your cake and eat it to.
 

IronNoggin

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From GreyDog on the other Forum:

"The truth is that Matthew Begbie thought highly of the average Indian in BC at the time. He spoke well of them and other minorities. He was criticized for convicting a white man on the testimony of Indians. He wrote that he was thankful he did not have to make the decision to hang the six Chilcotins but that the desire for retribution for the murder of 21 people was understandable.
He was an avid outdoorsman, hunter, and environmentalist. All in all, he was a product of his time and probably more of a champion of native rights than others who are venerated by this group.
We live in a time where some people can celebrate their heritage and, if necessary, re-write history to support their view. Other people must ignore their heritage or readily accept blame for any historical misdeeds or even perception of such. We, in Canada, are especially good at ignoring history in order to suck up to the whiner of the day. GD
"

My kind of fellow methinks! :Oh Yeah!:

Cheers,
Nog
 

olympia

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So here is how I see it, Jessie James, Cole Younger and more recently Claude Dallas. Here in Canada we have Billy Minor and Albert Johnson. What do they all have in common? They were pushed and harassed by the authorities. They were all "Defending themselves and what they had from the Gov't of the day. the people loved them BUT They were still outlaws, they were hunted down and paid for their "crimes" and THEY WERE ALL WHITE. My point being there have always been injustices to people red white black and brown. But the reaction of the individuals involved was what made them outlaws "justified" or not. Color, race and religion had nothing to do with it. Don't do the crime if you are not prepared to pay for your actions. As for Begbie he was the duly appointed law of the day and he was the kind of judge may of us wish we had today. How many times have I read on here from many many members. The judges are to soft, the law favors the criminals bring back the death penalty etc, etc. You can't have your cake and eat it to.
I agree with much of what your saying. I'm not even disagreeing with the hangings. I am disagreeing about the slimy way of bringing them in to "talk". They should have just continued to hunt them. They were the law so they shouldn't have lied that's all. Murder is murder and should be punished accordingly.
 

Foxton Gundogs

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Unfortunately the "law" does it all the time. They do it with fake "lottery" wins to get crooks to come in, they do it in interrogations and this is today not 100 yrs ago. It's part of the law maybe it should not be so but it is both in the past and today. My bitch is Begbie was tasked with keeping the law and following the rules of the day which he did. The man was a true frontier "hero" times have changed but unless we were around when things in BC were rough and tumble we have nothing in real life to compare what it was like to try and keep a lid on things.
 

olympia

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I'm not really a big fan of the statue being removed either, erasing history is dangerous in my opinion. I have read about Begbie. The people I'm annoyed with are the lawmen who committed this dishonorable deed and the corrupt Indian agents of the day but not Begbie, he was a judge and a part of BC history like it or not.
 

CanuckShooter

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I agree with much of what your saying. I'm not even disagreeing with the hangings. I am disagreeing about the slimy way of bringing them in to "talk". They should have just continued to hunt them. They were the law so they shouldn't have lied that's all. Murder is murder and should be punished accordingly.
It isn't murder when there is a war between sovereign nations. The white men were entering their territory without permission.
 

robert5

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I have no damm problem with law inforcement catching criminals with what means they can. They are criminals and the sooner they are incarcerated the better! They did not play fair in there criminal activities.
 

olympia

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I have no damm problem with law inforcement catching criminals with what means they can. They are criminals and the sooner they are incarcerated the better! They did not play fair in there criminal activities.
In 2019 I'd call a group of natives killing road workers criminal. But back then the settlers were just showing up so that to me is a grey area now...the natives were threatened with smallpox...that's what prompted the attack. Bad scenario for all, no one wins, the road foreman who made the threat lost his life and his arrogance got a bunch of innocent workers killed. Then the Chilcotin involved were hinted down and some eventually killed. What a dicey scenario to be in, I can't even imagine the moral and ethical responsibilities Begbie was tasked with.
 

Foxton Gundogs

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It isn't murder when there is a war between sovereign nations. The white men were entering their territory without permission.
Like they took the territory from "those who came before" the the Chilcotins, and the Shuswap were and very proud of their heritage as warriors the Whites. We're not the first to "invade" that country only the whites did not wipe out those who were already there as was the case with "those who had no iron" those are the real victoms only they are not around to tell their story.
 

olympia

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Like they took the territory from "those who came before" the the Chilcotins, and the Shuswap were and very proud of their heritage as warriors the Whites. We're not the first to "invade" that country only the whites did not wipe out those who were already there as was the case with "those who had no iron" those are the real victoms only they are not around to tell their story.
Good touche...I will be back
 

Foxton Gundogs

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It's all Good Nov. I speak from first hand knowledge passed on to me by members of both tribes. A spirited and respectful exchange of thoughts and ideas is never a bad thing imho. What we have to remember is that back then there were no road blocks, dragnets, high speed chases, radios etc. No tear gas, tasers, body armor, or bean bag guns. It was foot, horseback and snow shoe, it was running gun battles with real bullets and lets face it the Indians had the upper hand in the bush. I think any deception was in consideration of preventing high casualties on both sides and was done strictly to get it over without excessive "collateral" damage. But I guess the police and military could have went the route of the US at Wounded Knee, now that was an atrocity. jmo
 

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A different time and different rules........the average ''white Canadian '' was not as tolerant as folks today..........
gays hugging in public and marching in parades with ''city-halls'' and police stations flying rainbow flags...back then, it just would not happen.....times change....(Just used the ''gay issue'' as an example).

we all know,some things are just plain wrong,regardless of the ''law''. how we react defines us as civil.
when my grandfather lived in NORTH CAROLINA (Fayetteville) The roads were mud. it pained him to have a woman of color with children ,step off the wooden sidewalks to let him pass.....he told me that if HE stepped off into the mud to let her pass,and was seen by other whites, he could expect a night time visit from you know who....

status quo..........WW2, 18 year olds and often younger,smoked,drank and went to war to kill and be killed.....today you can't even buy a cigarette lighter if you look under 19......and 17-18 year olds have ''safe places to go to if they are yelled at..........yes a very different time......
most here can remember when ''smoking'' dope got you a ticket to jail........ a little different now.......
 

olympia

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Can we all or mostly all agree its The human race in general that's a problem? We make nuclear energy and turn it into a bomb, we make an engine and then attach an explosive to it, we make gunpowder to clear mountainsides for roads but use it to fire projectiles at one another. I guess the winning side will always be seen as the "bad guy". I have read extensively about Native tribal conflict and the Chilcoltins were pretty nasty to the carrier's and vice versa. So on and on it goes.
 

NAHMINT II

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Well put NOV !!
When I was in grade 3 back about 1954, (Might have posted this before) I was ''buddied up with a new student, who just arrived in KANADA....from Germany. I knew a few words like hello,good morning, my lunch stinks etc. we became great friends for many years.....his dad dropped him off at my fathers place where I was at...Mr.Kamphman was a ''sterieo type for a propaganda poster....6'+ white blond hair...a head as SQUARE as a cinder block.........I introduced him to father....dad remarked about his polished boots ....we went to get up to no-good as kids did back then.......later,father spoke about what a nice guy he was....seemed they were both in north Africa in 1943,both in the tank corps.....I never asked but wondered how close they were to shelling each other.....we can all go back in history where us and them were sworn enemies......my Irish ancestors and the British., my family members in INDIA, myself in QUEBEC and Canada at war with the Americans........ where does it start ,where does it stop ??? guess it starts with us......
my buddy in Australia last night,told me his wife,a doctor has breast cancer.....our brother MATT /IRON NOGGIN is bracing to loose his best friend-beloved dog.... me thinks
we should all step back,take a breath and be the first to extend a hand to someone who could become a friend.....
 
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olympia

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Well put NOV !!
When I was in grade 3 back about 1954, (Might have posted this before) I was ''buddied up with a new student, who just arrived in KANADA....from Germany. I knew a few words like hello,good morning, my lunch stinks etc. we became great friends for many years.....his dad dropped him off at my fathers place where I was at...Mr.Kamphman was a ''sterieo type for a propaganda poster....6'+ white blond hair...a head as SQUARE as a cinder block.........I introduced him to father....dad remarked about his polished boots ....we went to get up to no-good as kids did back then.......later,father spoke about what a nice guy he was....seemed they were both in north Africa in 1943,both in the tank corps.....I never asked but wondered how close they were to shelling each other.....we can all go back in history where us and them were sworn enemies......my Irish ancestors and the British., my family members in INDIA, myself in QUEBEC and Canada at war with the Americans........ where does it start ,where does it stop ??? guess oit starts with us......
my buddy in Australia last night,told me his wife,a doctor has breast cancer.....our brother MATT /IRON NOGGIN is bracing to loose his best friend-beloved dog.... me thinks
we should all step back,take a breath and be the first to extend a hand to someone who could become a friend.....
Greetings fellow HUMAN being!!!
 

Big Lew

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Like Nov, I have read quite a bit about the history of BC from several sources. I have many books
on the subject. As Nov further related, the Chilcotin were threatened with smallpox, a disease that
was killing whole families and most of almost every village that came in contact with the new comers.
When the new comers first began arriving, and even though the Chilcotin were known to be hostile
toward other tribes, they were friendly toward the newcomers and actually helped them survive the
brutal winter...but they were dismayed by the increasing numbers arriving and taking what they considered
their places, their everything. Who among us now would tolerate that today if a foreign country tried
the same thing to us? Judge Begbie was the colonial law for the newcomers that insisted the Indigenous
populations adhere to these colonial rules. Keep in mind that BC was yet not a part of Canada. Do I think
that the statue should have been removed? No, it is a part of our history and the man performed his duties
while trying to be fair to all of the people under his jurisdiction. In my opinion, there's a very big difference
between those Indigenous fighting for their survival and way of life as opposed to their descendants wanting
just about everything they can get today.
 
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olympia

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Like Nov, I have read quite a bit about the history of BC from several sources. I have many books
on the subject. As Nov further related, the Chilcotin were threatened with smallpox, a disease that
was killing whole families and most of almost every village that came in contact with the new comers.
When the new comers first began arriving, and even though the Chilcotin were known to be hostile
toward other tribes, they were friendly toward the newcomers and actually helped them survive the
brutal winter...but they were dismayed by the increasing numbers arriving and taking what they considered
their places, their everything. Who among us now would tolerate that today if a foreign country tried
the same thing to us? Judge Begbie was the colonial law for the newcomers that insisted the Indigenous
populations adhere to these colonial rules. Keep in mind that Canada was yet not a country. Do I think
that the statue should have been removed? No, it is a part of our history and the man performed his duties
while trying to be fair to all of the people under his jurisdiction. In my opinion, there's a very big difference
between those Indigenous fighting for their survival and way of life as opposed to their descendants wanting
just about everything they can get today.
That was a refreshing read. Many of my thoughts put into words.
 

Bow Walker

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I wholeheartedly agree with you there Glenn.

Jim's a sort of great guy even though he eats (and enjoys) those snotty, slimy, sidewalk shooters.....




YOU (on the other hand) are a gentleman of refined tastes who obviously knows how to treat oysters... :Hi:











:ROFL::ROFL::Owned::No need to say more
 

NAHMINT II

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DAN, HOW DO I GIVE YOU ''10 LIKES'' for that post????????
back about 87, after delivering ''explosives'' to a logging operation up in HOWE SOUND, ( no blasting caps).....we decided on a well deserved break.......salmon,too much beer (Sleeping onboard) fresh bread and potato salad....the skipper cooked up some fresh oysters.....almost ate one.....burnt my dam fingers on the shell....... nope,just can't eat one !!!!
 

Bow Walker

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The far-and-few-between Christmas season I have been known to try a canned smoked oyster from the canape tray at the snack table...... This 'smart' move is a direct result of having that "one drink too many" before eating something....

It takes quite a few more tipples to wash that nasty taste outta my face hole. :Black Eye:
 

robert5

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The far-and-few-between Christmas season I have been known to try a canned smoked oyster from the canape tray at the snack table...... This 'smart' move is a direct result of having that "one drink too many" before eating something....

It takes quite a few more tipples to wash that nasty taste outta my face hole. :Black Eye:
Come on now,there is no FINER taste than a raw oyster slithering down your throat!!
 
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BC30cal

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Like Nov, I have read quite a bit about the history of BC from several sources. I have many books
on the subject. As Nov further related, the Chilcotin were threatened with smallpox, a disease that
was killing whole families and most of almost every village that came in contact with the new comers.
When the new comers first began arriving, and even though the Chilcotin were known to be hostile
toward other tribes, they were friendly toward the newcomers and actually helped them survive the
brutal winter...but they were dismayed by the increasing numbers arriving and taking what they considered
their places, their everything. Who among us now would tolerate that today if a foreign country tried
the same thing to us? Judge Begbie was the colonial law for the newcomers that insisted the Indigenous
populations adhere to these colonial rules. Keep in mind that BC was yet not a part of Canada. Do I think
that the statue should have been removed? No, it is a part of our history and the man performed his duties
while trying to be fair to all of the people under his jurisdiction. In my opinion, there's a very big difference
between those Indigenous fighting for their survival and way of life as opposed to their descendants wanting
just about everything they can get today.
Big Lew;
Good afternoon to you sir, I trust that the day is as nice in your part of the world as it's turned out to be here.

Like you, I'm a student of history and devour as much reading on the subject of local history as I'm able to. My rancher buddy has a number of rare old, out of print books and has been gracious enough to share them with me as I actually return them when I'm done!

Anyway he had one written as a series of letters by one of the young British officers R. Wilson I believe - who surveyed the border from Vancouver Island to the Alberta border the first time they did it in 1859 to 1862 or early '63.

Yes it was written by a Victorian era Briton and as such there's a tad of jingoism and some racial overtones - but - it's interesting to note that when some of the FN folks learned that they'd no longer be under British control actually migrated north so they would be.

He writes about interacting with Governor James Douglas - whose mother was from Barbados and was what was then known as a "free person of color" - and with Matthew Begbie too. Begbie himself was born on a ship heading to Mauritius, so he was used to living in a multi ethnic/cultural/lingual whatever we choose to call it.

Wilson writes that Begbie was well thought of by the local FN folks because he helped bring the Queen's law to the area - one of the byproducts of which was relative peace between the once former warring nations.

One of the many facts overlooked by so many groups these days is that prior to the HBC coming to Canada - and then later on the NWMP into the western plains - it was absolutely culturally acceptable to hunt down and kill folks who weren't in your people group.

For a quick diversionary read, here's a link to the Pilot Mound Fight - in southern Manitoba not far from where I grew up.


Back then the Metis and their Cree cousins were in constant contention for the buffalo grounds with the Sioux from the south and the Blackfoot Confederacy to the west. It was basically over the counter tags with no bag limits, no closed season.

Folks nowadays either blissfully ignore the realities of life then or worse willfully choose not to speak about what they know.

Another book I just picked up is "The Palliser Expedition" by Irene Spry - it's a 1963 printing by the way. In it, Palliser talks often about the Stoney chap he's picked up who knows the way from the buffalo grounds through the Rockies and into the interior. He's the guy who eventually shows them where Kicking Horse Pass is.

Palliser's big problem over the plains is keeping the Stoney alive, because in all interactions with the local Cree, he mentions how "nettlesome" it is that they're always trying to lure the Stoney away from the British so they can kill him......

In conclusion, emphatically times were so different then that most of us, even serious students of the time, would scarcely recognize it if we were transported there and in no time would either adapt or not survive. That is as plain as I can put it sir, with apologies to any who might be offended by that viewpoint.

Lastly, I'll stand by whomever it was that suggested "those who do not remember their history are doomed to repeat it". Our modern society - I believe - absolutely does so at our peril.

All the best to you folks once again sir.

Dwayne
 

CanuckShooter

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I was chatting with a native fellow near Ft St James, we got to talking about our family connections and when I mentioned my Cree ancestors he said ''we hated the Cree, they used to come steal our women all the time"...and he laughed and laughed. I think there is a lot of knowledge about our history in Canada that has been lost or never told.
 

olympia

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I was chatting with a native fellow near Ft St James, we got to talking about our family connections and when I mentioned my Cree ancestors he said ''we hated the Cree, they used to come steal our women all the time"...and he laughed and laughed. I think there is a lot of knowledge about our history in Canada that has been lost or never told.
Or just never been given a chance to be listened to
 

NAHMINT II

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Bombay Gin? Gross...I'd have to eat the oyster 2nd if I took a swig of that lol
'
glad you know of the evil of ''it''. got quite ill on that once....heck,i might even drink a single malt SCOTCH before drinking that again !!!Evening NOG,, Talking about Scotch, what about compairing OYSTERS to HAGGAS !!!!!!!!!!
 
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